Comments on: White bread, pure and simple

By: Mike

Mike — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:07:06 +0000

I hope I’m not repeating a question, but I’ve looked through all the comments and didn’t see an answer: the Pain de Mie pan comes in 2 sizes–I bought the smaller, 9″ size, how should the recipe be adjusted to fit this pan? Also, I’d like to try using the Scandinavian Black Bread mix in this pan–has anyone else tried that? Any suggestions?

Mike, you’d want to try these amounts in the 9″ pain de mie pan:

1/2 cup (4 ounces) milk
1/2 cup (4 ounces) water
4 tablespoons 92 ounces) butter
1 1/4 teaspoons salt
2 tablespoons sugar
3 tablespoons Baker’s Special Dry Milk or nonfat dry milk
2 tablespons potato flour or 1/4 cup instant potato flakes
3 1/4 cups (13 3/4 ounces) King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
2 teaspoons instant yeast

Haven’t tried the black bread recipe in the pain de mie - sounds like it would work, butno telling till you try, right? Let us know - PJH

By: Carrie

Carrie — Sat, 17 Oct 2009 03:03:09 +0000

I have a 16″ pain de mie pan that I purchased a couple of years ago from a bakery that was going out of business. I have never used it before and I can’t wait to try it. I’m not sure how to go about coming up with the correct measurements for the different sized pan. Can you please help? Or do you know of a web resource that might help me figure it out?

Hi Carrie: Please try our Pain de Mie recipe, increasing all of the ingredients (except the yeast) by 50%; should work out just fine. Enjoy - PJH

By: livo

livo — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:13:47 +0000

I have removed all possible variables and bought a bag of Pre-mix Crusty White Bread. 10 kg for under $19.00 including yeast. Measure the yeast and mix, then add water. Baked in my Pullman loaf tin the bread come out perfect with oven at 200 C (by thermometer) baked for 30 minutes then lid off for 10 minutes. It did not quite fill the tin at the ends but it didn’t collapse.
From the same mill company website I used their recipe for plain white bread from scratch with the same result. I compensated the amount so this time the loaf tin filled to produce a perfect loaf. What is different to my previous attempts using numerous “online” recipes?

NO ADDED SUGAR.

Allowing the dough to ferment using only the carbs available in the flour produced exactly what I’m after. At first I though there must be an omission from the ingredient list. I checked the nutrition information on the packaging of the Bread Flour and the Premix expecting to find a discrepancy but it wasn’t there. The added sugar must be the cause of the problem.

By: livo

livo — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:47:27 +0000

My bread taste is fine but it’s still collapsing. I’m trying all sorts of things. I think my main problem is that the oven is all over the place in terms of temperature. No consistency at all. Yesterday I put a baking tray full of clean pebbles in the bottom to act a a thermal battery and put the temp control on 200 C. The day before that setting gave me 215 C, measured by the thermometer, but yesterday when I took the bread out the thermometer was reading 260 C and the bread was overcooked crust and collapsed top AGAIN. One day the oven set at 180 gives me 200. The next day 180 gives me 165. I also think this irregular operation is occuring during a session. I doubt the landlord will fork out to fix the oven just so I can bake bread. I may have to wait until I move back to my own home to achieve success.
I would love to know how the bakery achieves the closed crumb and low density of their loaves while retaining the moisture level of the finished product. I’m thinking that either the ingredients list is not 100% truthful of there is a significant event taking place in the actual process.

Without dependable equipment, it may be best to use that oven as a storage space for pots and pans. It is not just the ingredients that create the loaf. It also involves: ingredient quality, mixing method, fermentation timeline, baking and cooling. Take a look at some of the white, pan bread recipes on our site for more info. Frank @ KAF.

By: Karen H

Karen H — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:59:02 +0000

Every time I bake the pain de mie, it sinks in the middle and the crumb, especially in the middle, is very coarse. The taste is fine, but I really don’t like that texture in the middle. Any ideas on the problem or the solution? Thanks! It sounds like your dough is a bit too wet, or that your yeast is giving out too soon. Give us a call on the Baker’s Hot line and we’ll problem solve together. 800-827-6836. Mary @ KAF

By: livo

livo — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 01:48:17 +0000

I tried to email Joan@bakershotline but my message was bounced. Not to worry. I think I have some information that may be helpfull to others so post this if you wish.
I eventually stumbled upon a very informative, 2 page document from Lallemand / AYS. Baking update Volume 1 Number 13. It is wholly concerned with Dough Conditioner and fully explains and lists the individual additives and groupings, as well as giving the usage levels as percentages of flour mass. My searching also led me to find that instead of the listed Ammonium salts, I could use Ground Ginger as a Yeast Nutrient.
For the home baker this is a formula for “Home Made” dough conditioner using readily available ingredients. I’ve got my first batch going ATM so I’ll give an update later.
These quantities will make enough for 50 loaves at 680 grams or 1.5lbs.
400 grams Vital Wheat Gluten
100 grams Lecithin Granules
60 grams Soy Flour
1 gram Ascorbic Acid (I crushed 2 x 500mg Sugarless Vitamin C tablets)
1 gram Ground Ginger.

Grind and mix. Use at 10 - 12 grams per 400 grams of flour. This converts to 1/2 ounce per pound of flour. (It is about 1 Tablespoon).

By: livo

livo — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:03:44 +0000

PJH,
In your earlier reply you said that 190 C is a bit cooler than 350 F. It is actually a bit hotter. My conversion and other tables gives 350 F as 176.66 C. If you are baking at 176 would the bread ever reach 190?

You’re right - I think! One conversion calculator I checked said 190°C is 344°F. The other says 190°C is 374°F. And yes, baking at 176°C the bread would reach 190°F quite easily, given sufficient time. Hope this helps - PJH

By: livo

livo — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:10:52 +0000

Well may you ask. Why? I have a daughter who will only eat (without protest) the loaf from the Franchised Bakery in town, 16 kms or 10 miles. It must be toast sliced and heaven forbid I should dare to pull a loaf from the freezer. The quest to reproduce it at home may end up a futile one but I’m enjoying it anyway and learning a lot.
This bread is snow white, fine close crumb, very moist with soft lightly coloured crust. I’m sure you know what I mean. I’m trying to get there and I have to admit that it isn’t easy. I’ve been close on a couple of occasions and one attempt (a Pull-apart ring of small buns with ham and cheese topping) came very close to the desired texture, color and flavour.
Sometimes the bag they sell it in comes with a label listing the nutritional info and ingredients. This is helpful since it tells me that it is indeed a very simple recipe. However, there is the “Secret Ingredient”, being a Soft Bread Improver. The ingredient list for this is given in order of volume but of course not the actual proportional formula. So this is what I’ve gleaned so far and my interpretation of same.
First it contains Soy Flour. By this I have researched Lecithin. Second by volume is Wheat Flour. Now wheat flour is already the main ingredient in the bread so I can only assume that this is in fact Vital Wheat Gluten of 70 % - 80% Protein, otherwise why would you bother? Next is Emulsifier 481. I’m going to ignore this since it is a stabiliser that assists in machine mixed mass production, so not for me. It then lists Enzyme and my research would suggest that this is most likely to be Amylase. I’m not going to try to get this as I wouldn’t know where to begin looking. The last and therefore smallest ing’ is Dough Conditioner 300 (Ascorbic Acid or plain Vit’ C).
So if a single loaf using 500 grams of Bread flour requires a 1% addition of Improver I was going to try 1/2 Teaspoon of Lecithin, a short 1/2 Teaspoon of Gluten at 75% and a sniff of Citric Acid since I don’t have Ascorbic. Will this matter?
I would really like to see a clear and useful formula for the preparation of a home made “Bread Improver”. What do you think? I know many argue that for the home baker it is not necessary but many recipes stipulate it’s addition and I feel that it makes a significant difference to my loaves. Perhaps it covers up my inexperience in kneading and shaping.
That reminds me of my other question. How important is shaping the dough in a Pullman Tin with lid? I’ve seen 1 link that basically stuffs it in and pushes it to the bottom and into the corners after rolling it out to 3 X the length of the pan and then double folding it in from each end. Please call our bakers hot line for help with this recipe. Joan@bakershotline

By: livo

livo — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 05:03:21 +0000

Thanks for your reply PJH. I dont really have to have the loaf ending at exactly 650g. I just expected to have the loaf weight that the tin was labelled as or close to. I have since found that “Supermarket” white bread is 650g and “Bakery” white bread of the same size is 680g so my 710 isn’t too heavy really.
I ate and enjoyed it so the product was fine. Kids are funny animals when it comes to bread though.
The flour used is called Wallaby Bakers Unbleached Flour and is stated to be 11.9% protein.
I am still trying to master the oven as it’s temperature control is very difficult. I am now using a seperate thermometer since the oven is much hotter then the control suggests. Set the dial to 180 C and it reaches 220 C before the neon drops out. My initial attempts at different items showed that the oven is way hotter than settings. I thought 190 C was a bit low so I’ll bump it up a little or as you suggest leave in the tin for extra 5 minutes before removing the lid. The trouble with the lidded tin is naturally that you can’t see what is going on insideThere are a couple of other variables that may be in play here as well. My bread improver is a bit on the old side so maybe it’s not working properly. Does it really expire or is the date on the container just there for regulation conformity? I also forgot that due to our drought I had bought water in from the “medicated” town water supply a couple of days before. I had been using rain water prior to this. Also, being relatively new to this I am still a novice in the kneading area. I had just read an article warning about over-working dough so I may have slightly under done it through fear.
I’m being a bit adventurous now. Since the supermarkets here have stopped selling Bread Improver, (probably due to the novelty of Bread Machines disappearing) I have been reading up on them and today I bought some Vital Wheat Gluten (75%) and some Soy Lecithin granules. I already have some Citric Acid so I’m going to play around with very small quantities and examine the effects of same. You could help me here if you can. .Please call our bakers hot line for help with your bread. Joan@bakershotline

By: livo

livo — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 04:40:42 +0000

I have purchased a lidded pullman pan here in Australia that is 4″x4″x10″. It was sold to me as a 650 gram tin which I assumed to mean you bake 650 gram loaves in it. I can buy 650 gram loaves from the bakery and this is the correct size. I’ve done a couple of tests and also calculated the dough weight for this size pan and I get very conflcting results.
I’m trying to bake a very boring white bread that kids eat. Just flour, water, yeast, salt and sugar.
You recommend using 40 oz of dough for the full size pan (4×4x13) so I calculate my pan should use approximately 31 oz or 875 grams. This will produce a loaf much heavier than 650 grams, probably more like 800g.
I tried a dough of 650 grams plus 10% giving 715 grams (it actually came out at 770 g with salt, sugar, yeast and improver plus added flour from kneading surface and additional water to compensate this). This produced a baked loaf of 710 grams but it sunk on top upon lid removal and collapsed further as it cooled. The dough behaved properly during first fermant and proof in the tin and I imagin it filled the pan in the final 10 minutes. I baked in a measured oven at 190 Celsius for 25 minutes before removing the lid then a further 15. I’m yet to cut it but I feel that my oven should be hotter and I want to know how to get a 650 gram loaf out of this tin. Is more yeast the answer or could it be the kneading and shaping process? Do I have to stretch the top of the dough the same as if I were using an open tin to create the surface tension?

Hi - I’m curious why you want a loaf that’s exactly 650g? Why not stick with your 710g loaf, which would simply give you a tighter crumb? Aside from the sinking in the center, were you happy with the taste of the bread? I’d try your 710g recipe again; the sinking in the middle is probably due to 1) an oven that’s too hot, so the outsides baked before the center; or 2) underbaking. 190°C is a slight bit cooler than 350°F. I’d give it 30 minutes with the lid instead of 25. Also, what was the protein level of your flour? This will impact everything. I’m unfamiliar with Australian flours… My pullman loaes sometimes sink in the center, and I think it’s from underbaking, personally. Try, try again… the experiments are tasty, anyway. PJH